I don't buy that there is a "rape script" that women can interrupt at their will. This really *does* constitute victim-blaming, and I find it interesting you're not all over this guy after getting so worked up this in the past. Sure, assertiveness may work in certain isolated, individual cases, likely ones in which the rapist is either nervous or unsure of himself. But men are much stronger than women, and it is just as likely such actions will result in a brutal beating- it's all chance.
Men- in general- have, are, and always will refuse to be "held accountable" because most aren't rapists. Wait!- don't dismiss me yet! I- personally- understand where you're coming from. But no matter what, you are *always* going to be confronted with the line of "I am not a rapist, how am I responsible for this?" You can argue any kind of logic until you're blue in the face, but men who have not committed the crime will always, always resent being "held accountable" in any way, shape or form. It may not be ideal, but it needs to be accepted.
monika
· 1 year ago
Is there a robbery-script or a murder-script we can "empower" victims to follow in order to prevent being victimized by these crimes? My bet is that if someone wants to rob me, there is very little I can do to "prevent" it.
Derek
· 1 year ago
Exactly, monika. You touch on my concerns with Marcus' argument here.
With that said, I'm not so sure sexual violence against women can be equated with robbery or murder; of course, women who are sexually assaulted are often in danger of being physically harmed, including murdered, but I'm not sure the two should be equated.
For one, while some researchers disagree on this, other researchers have determined that if women react violently to an attempted sexual assault, not only is there no heightened risk of reciprocated violence, but there is a higher chance the attempted sexual assault will fail. This is because, as Marcus writes, the rape script requires women to be passive and not utilise their strength. I'm not sure if the same holds true for murder and robbery, but I'd like to see some research on the matter.
Now, I do think Marcus' argument is important, so long as advocates of it are aware of the very strong potential for it to become a form of victim-blaming. I really would like to see a rise in popularity for feminist self-defense classes, where women aren't necessarily taught to be strong, but rather are taught that they already are strong, and how to use the strength they already have.
All that said, though, I do think you bring up an important point.
monika
· 1 year ago
I agree that such a comparison is simplistic and not entirely fair. (Robbery is less likely to be a hate crime, for example).
I believe that whatever a person does in a sexual assault/abuse situation (freeze, fight, flee) needs to be honoured, and whether or not a person is in fact at increased risk statistically if she/he fights back, many people feel that they are. And I honour people's "gut feelings".
I like the idea of challenging scripts but am wary of this as a "suggestion" in sexual violence situations (because of the potential for victim blaming). What would it look like, instead, to challenge these gender scripts at other levels - in relationships, community, etc. Now THAT has potential for eradicating a rape culture IMHO. And it takes the onus off of the victimized person and onto the community, which I like.
spiderman
· 1 year ago
its not victim blaming... what she is suggesting is that, a rape script (the way rape usual happens) can be prevented. She is not arguing that its the victims fault but that the victim can prevent the rape. The important thing about the rape script is that it is a series of events that can be interrupted, therefore not viewing rape as an inevitable fact. Virtually every limb of the body can be used as a weapon in a rape situation (close range), elbows, head-buts, knees and upper cuts will work, and of course attack the groin. Society is not acting to stop rape(unfortunately), potential rape victims need to do everything they can to stop the problem. There is hope that through communal understanding we can eliminate rape, existing methods are not effective and we need to resolve this. preventing rape by means of aggression or weapons is necessary for the mean time.
monika
· 1 year ago
There is someone curiously absent in your analysis, Spiderman. And that is the people who can REALLY stop sexual violence. (Guess who that is!) I don't mean to pick on you - this happens a lot when we focus on the behaviour of the victims. There is little or no acknowledgment of the perps.
LOP
· 1 year ago
No offense, but if a rape is already in progress, monika, I think we can safely assume that "the perp" has made his decision and is not going to do his part to prevent sexual violence.
Derek
· 1 year ago
No offense, LOP, but there's a problem if you're reading into monika's statement that linearly. Men can be the perpetrators of sexual violence without directly sexually assaulting women. By contributing to the culture that condones and normalises sexual violence, by not challenging these behaviours and values, men can be distant perpetrators of sexual assault and rape.
spiderman
· 1 year ago
It is my opinion and I think one based on solid evidence that, the mentality pf rapist is the result of a system that oppresses women. Society views women as “feminine” weak and unable to defend them selves, this perception of women perpetuates the problem. The rapist is without a doubt responsible for the rape, but in order to eliminate the problem, we must also eliminate the perception that women are weak. “…self-defense strikes at the heart of rape culture.” (Marcus). Causing serious injury to a rapist conveys the idea that rape is not acceptable and can be prevented. It is unfair to place this burden on women but in conjunction with effective legislation and punishment, there is hope that we can bring rape to an end. It’s a difficult issue to tackle and I must admit that, I do not know what the solution is exactly. A state is responsible for ensuring the safety of the public, when it comes to rape the state has failed. Ensuring the state protects the public should be our first priority. I do not believe that the victim is to blame, nor do I believe that anyone in rape situation should act violently if they are not comfortable doing so. However I do believe women are capable of defending themselves and I think what Marcus does is empower women to change society.
LOP
· 1 year ago
Well, Derek, I do agree that society as a whole can be and is partially responsible for the high rates of rape and other sexual violence. I totally agree that this is a serious flaw in society that we should work to correct as people. But that's not the subject at hand. The author is discussing a hypothetical "rape script" in regards to individual attacks which are in progress and are happening. I don't think that this necessarily has lift responsibility from the community's shoulders.
It's like... I feel as though, you really just want people to throw on some sort of "disclaimer" onto everything to to the effect of "BUT, remember kids, it's all on society's shoulders!" And I *do* acknowledge that. But this is a focused discussion regarding in-progress assault, and in individualized and on-the-spot cases like this discussing society's faults isn't much help.
monika
· 1 year ago
I don't think that anyone is arguing that women should not physically defend themselves during sexual assaults. At least I am not. And I think interruption of the script of women as weak can be broadened beyond sexual assault. This is what feminism is all about - demanding (not politely asking for) women's full equality.
I just get my knickers in a knot when anyone says women "must" do anything. For some women, in some situations, a fight response comes automatically when in a sexual assault situation. For others, the freeze response (to help the individual cope with the psychological trauma) occurs. These are all valid responses (which I am sure everyone here agrees with). However, whenever we say women "must" do something, we are saying "if you didn't do this, you contributed to the sexual assault." Or at least this is how it is interpreted by many survivors.
When I was in high school, I was jumped by a bunch of men I didn't know. It wasn't a sexual assault situation. What instinctively occured was a fight response and I actually successfully fought back.
In a situation later in life, with an individual I knew, I was attacked and the freeze response set in.
I think one of the differences was that I knew the person in the latter situation and in the previous one, it was strangers. Women (and kids and men) are less likely to fight back if the assault is perpetuated by someone we know, love, and/or trust - which is the majority of sexual perpetrators.
I agree that we must interrupt the rape script for a number of reasons and in a broader sense than during the sexual assault. Personally, I see women as interrupting this script when they challenge the belief that it is their fault, that there is something they "should" have done to prevent the violence, that the offender just "lost control" or was otherwise not responsible for the act, when they seek help and support, when they speak out against sexual violence, when they challenge others to focus on the behaviour of the perp versus the survivor, etc.
Even in situations where they are victimized, women ARE already active agents in their responses- their psyche may be actively protecting them from the full blunt of the trauma by dissociating, for example.
This is a difficult discussion to have, and it is important that we are having it.
All Comments
I don't buy that there is a "rape script" that women can interrupt at their will. This really *does* constitute victim-blaming, and I find it interesting you're not all over this guy after getting so worked up this in the past. Sure, assertiveness may work in certain isolated, individual cases, likely ones in which the rapist is either nervous or unsure of himself. But men are much stronger than women, and it is just as likely such actions will result in a brutal beating- it's all chance.
Men- in general- have, are, and always will refuse to be "held accountable" because most aren't rapists. Wait!- don't dismiss me yet! I- personally- understand where you're coming from. But no matter what, you are *always* going to be confronted with the line of "I am not a rapist, how am I responsible for this?" You can argue any kind of logic until you're blue in the face, but men who have not committed the crime will always, always resent being "held accountable" in any way, shape or form. It may not be ideal, but it needs to be accepted.
With that said, I'm not so sure sexual violence against women can be equated with robbery or murder; of course, women who are sexually assaulted are often in danger of being physically harmed, including murdered, but I'm not sure the two should be equated.
For one, while some researchers disagree on this, other researchers have determined that if women react violently to an attempted sexual assault, not only is there no heightened risk of reciprocated violence, but there is a higher chance the attempted sexual assault will fail. This is because, as Marcus writes, the rape script requires women to be passive and not utilise their strength. I'm not sure if the same holds true for murder and robbery, but I'd like to see some research on the matter.
Now, I do think Marcus' argument is important, so long as advocates of it are aware of the very strong potential for it to become a form of victim-blaming. I really would like to see a rise in popularity for feminist self-defense classes, where women aren't necessarily taught to be strong, but rather are taught that they already are strong, and how to use the strength they already have.
All that said, though, I do think you bring up an important point.
I believe that whatever a person does in a sexual assault/abuse situation (freeze, fight, flee) needs to be honoured, and whether or not a person is in fact at increased risk statistically if she/he fights back, many people feel that they are. And I honour people's "gut feelings".
I like the idea of challenging scripts but am wary of this as a "suggestion" in sexual violence situations (because of the potential for victim blaming). What would it look like, instead, to challenge these gender scripts at other levels - in relationships, community, etc. Now THAT has potential for eradicating a rape culture IMHO. And it takes the onus off of the victimized person and onto the community, which I like.
It's like... I feel as though, you really just want people to throw on some sort of "disclaimer" onto everything to to the effect of "BUT, remember kids, it's all on society's shoulders!" And I *do* acknowledge that. But this is a focused discussion regarding in-progress assault, and in individualized and on-the-spot cases like this discussing society's faults isn't much help.
I just get my knickers in a knot when anyone says women "must" do anything. For some women, in some situations, a fight response comes automatically when in a sexual assault situation. For others, the freeze response (to help the individual cope with the psychological trauma) occurs. These are all valid responses (which I am sure everyone here agrees with). However, whenever we say women "must" do something, we are saying "if you didn't do this, you contributed to the sexual assault." Or at least this is how it is interpreted by many survivors.
When I was in high school, I was jumped by a bunch of men I didn't know. It wasn't a sexual assault situation. What instinctively occured was a fight response and I actually successfully fought back.
In a situation later in life, with an individual I knew, I was attacked and the freeze response set in.
I think one of the differences was that I knew the person in the latter situation and in the previous one, it was strangers. Women (and kids and men) are less likely to fight back if the assault is perpetuated by someone we know, love, and/or trust - which is the majority of sexual perpetrators.
I agree that we must interrupt the rape script for a number of reasons and in a broader sense than during the sexual assault. Personally, I see women as interrupting this script when they challenge the belief that it is their fault, that there is something they "should" have done to prevent the violence, that the offender just "lost control" or was otherwise not responsible for the act, when they seek help and support, when they speak out against sexual violence, when they challenge others to focus on the behaviour of the perp versus the survivor, etc.
Even in situations where they are victimized, women ARE already active agents in their responses- their psyche may be actively protecting them from the full blunt of the trauma by dissociating, for example.
This is a difficult discussion to have, and it is important that we are having it.